Stickbow Target Archery Forums

Although I've been practicing holding and aiming for a couple of years now, I continue to be more accurate with the swing-draw/all-one-motion technique.

Here are some thoughts on the matter. I saw a video on youtube of a guy drawing a perfect circle 1 meter in diameter.
He does so in one smooth motion (snap shooting?). If he had gone slowly, and tried to be precise (holding and aiming?) his circle would have probably been pretty jagged and lopsided at best.

I think the large muscle groups involved in archery are not precision-friendly. I think they work best in continual motion, or continual contraction. Once they turn into "holding" muscles, they can easily be swayed in any direction, but as long as they are active muscles, it is harder to change their course.

"Here are some thoughts on the matter. I saw a video on youtube of a guy drawing a perfect circle 1 meter in diameter. Video
He does so in one smooth motion (snap shooting?). If he had gone slowly, and tried to be precise (holding and aiming?) his circle would have probably been pretty jagged and lopsided at best.

I think the large muscle groups involved in archery are not precision-friendly. I think they work best in continual motion, or continual contraction. Once they turn into "holding" muscles, they can easily be swayed in any direction, but as long as they are active muscles, it is harder to change their course."n
A couple of thoughts. 1 )I think you may be underestimating the influence of momentum in creating the smooth outline of the circle rather than the precision of muscles in continual motion. Also, note that in this particular style of freehand drawing, the shoulder is used as a natural pivot and the arm as a compass. 2) Top compound and FITA shooters hold and aim (the length of hold vairies, but there are no FITA snap shooters.) If the top archers in the world hold and aim, I am dubious that a swing draw is a general key to accuracy.

Suppose we call it a 'dynamic release' instead of continuous motion? That is, your release will be smoother and your results better if you are moving when you release. Agreed.

With a swing draw, where are you just before and just after releasing? Off target. With practice, you can be great -- but your timing had better be spot on!
So, the question becomes, how else besides a swing draw can you use a dynamic release? And, is there any way this dynamic release can be in line with the flight of the arrow?n
At least, these are the questions I have arrived at after a a few years of struggling.

Gerard
The momentum is also applicable to drawing a bow. Any weightlifter knows that it is harder to stop a movement in the middle and then start again, than it is to keep the weight in motion. (or in our case, keep the draw in motion). The fact that top shooters hold and aim, certainly deals a blow to my theory, but there is a possible explanation....however unlikely: has anyone ever dedicated years of their lives to shooting a FITA rig with the fluid motion of a snap shooter? Would anyone in that field of archery ever consider the possibility of using a hunting style? I doubt it. Anyone who takes up Olympic Style archery is going to use the "tried-and-true" techniques, and not even consider trying to re-invent the wheel.
Arc
If you follow the teachings of John Schulz, the primary student of Howard Hill, then you will be on target a few inches before reaching anchor, then maintaining this until release...so timing is not so critical. (I have, however seen video of Hill coming down on to target and getting "on" at the same moment he hits anchor/releases, so there are different extremes to the style).

I do however think you're right about the cleaner release occurring while moving.

Todd,n
One of the things I like about both Kisik Lee and Vittorio and Michele Frangilli who wrote The Heretic Archer, is that they both say continual motion is a myth.

They way that once you start 'expanding', you should continue. So, they have a modified version of continual motion.

That is, they say you come to anchor and aim and get on target.

Once you are on target, you start 'expanding' -- the end result is the string hand moves away from the target, and the bow hand moves toward it. Sounds like continual motion, yes?n
However -- there is a break. The break occurs between 'anchor' and 'expanding'.
That is, they both say that when you draw all the way back, that is anchoring.

Then, you get everything in line -- you consciously release any tension from the string forearm (this is the infamous 'transfer') -- they say that even if you draw with as much 'back' as possible, you cannot help using a lot of forearm until you are fully aligned -- once you are fully aligned, you consciously relax the forearm, and the only thing that can pick up the slack is the back.

Once the back has picked up the slack, you start expanding -- so, as you prefer, you shoot 'in motion' -- but the motion is in line with the flight of the arrow.

Turns out there are a lot of things you can do at setup and predraw and draw that make it possible to use the back after anchor.

Lads
Conflict is not inevitable here in my view. I use both methods regularly. Push/pull, visual pre-aim for light bows and targets: swing draw with mind's-eye pre-aim for heavy bows and general sport and hunting archery. Among the virtues of the swing method is that you are aiming during the last few inches of the draw and can shoot quickly, perhaps even before completing the draw and make a reasonable hit. But you can also pause for a considerable aiming period if you wish.

Second, I don't think you need continuous motion during the aiming period to get a dynamic release. I do think you need to increase the tension, the muscular effort. Otherwise as the muscles fatigue a bit and you will creep. Increase the effort to maintain the draw length, possibly increasing it a trifle.

But it is important to recall that this last phase of the draw, using expansion or whatever mental image you prefer is not so much a push/pull movement as a rotational one. The back contracts, the chest expands and the shoulder rotates. You may isolate one of those as a form thought, or treat them as a single process.

Whether you pause for a time, as to run a mental checklist, or an aiming interval, prior to the last rotational phase, is a personal choice.

I agree that continual motion for target archers is a myth, but for a different reason. The benefits of continual motion when exerted against a force is due to a certain amount of speed. If you go slowly enough (the time it takes to transfer to the back) the benefits of continuous motion are nullified.

Obviously the target archer's style works well, so perhaps the high level of expertise outweighs any benefit of continuous motion.

I can't do "continuous motion" as it produces too much variation in draw length, which really plays havoc with long distance shots. I do try to do a continual tension, which is a bit different but more controlable to me. YMMV!n
Dave

The concept of "continual motion" in this thread is rather mixed. In discussing the swing draw there are two separate primary motions going on, elevating the bow to be on target and the drawing of the string.

When ArcCaster is talking about "continual motion" and its variants by Lee and Frangilli, they are talking about the drawing of the string, not elevating the bow. For them, the bow is already elevated when you start to draw.

Shooting with a clicker changes the priorities for an archer. There is no "hold at anchor" with a clicker if you define "anchor" as the actual point you release from. The idea is to finish the draw by push the bow or pulling the string (or both) while it is aimed at the target so the the aim is perfect as you pull/push through the clicker and release. The idea of pushing the bow forward only make sense if you are using a clicker. While it might make sense to keep your form consistent if you shoot both FITA and barebow, it does not make sense for non FITA, non clicker shooters to use the "push" through the clicker release since the form was created specifically for the needs of a clicker--a mater of form following the equipment rather than the other way around.

The contention that perhaps someone could develop a top snap shooting FITA form if that was how people practiced is an interesting one, but I'd say also a doubtful one. All of the slow fire target shooting sports I can think of that involve static targets also feature deliberative aiming rather than a quickly elevated weapon. Granted, the ergonomics of archery are different than handguns and long guns but I suspect the actual precision aiming involved is related.

So, you need to define which aspect of "continuous motion" you think might be advantageous to your archery, the swing or the draw.

The swing draw is a specialty beast. It can be executed with amazing results by amazing people, but it isn't an all purpose draw that should be adopted for every situation.

I think we are agreeing vigorously
Continuous motion as it used to be described could, as Dave mentions, cause variation in draw length. To be avoided by a non-clicker shooter.

The opposite, a dead release, straddles that thin line between collapsing and dynamic release. A potentially treacherous line to walk Me, I try to avoid it.

A dynamic (or moving) release, as used by clicker shooters, increases the draw length by perhaps 1/8 inch over a period of a few seconds.

A dynamic release, as used by a barebow shooter, is more of a 'stretch' than a movement -- an increase in tension, with maybe no movement of the arrow. In fact, some coaches don't even look at the arrow to see if you are using a dynamic release -- they look at what happens to your string hand after release (if you are stretching as you release, the hand flies back very differently than if you just 'let go')n
With a dynamic release, you are not trying to hold still -- you are trying to expand -- and I think that simply trying to expand, whether you actually expand or whether you just increase tension, will produce the same fluid shot you get with continuous motion, but with less variation in draw length.