Stickbow Target Archery Forums

steve morley, Member # 499, posted March 29, 2004 03:29 AM ----
"Gapmastern This has nothing to do with bitching about the rules, it's about the IFAA making rules that can be interpreted by different people in different ways, I think that everyone has the same goal in wanting the competition fair." n
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I disagree completely. Most of the really silly rules would not even be discussed if it were not for someone crying "unfair" Then when that happens the organization has to address the issue. I have been shooting for years myself and can assure you that I also do not want to travel somewhere only to be told my equipment does not conform. And I will repeat as I have in the last several years on this board, there are just to many rules you have to conform to. So what happens is some shooter (remember, I am a shooter too) says, "hey, I think the only reason he out shot me is because is bow is blue and the rule says no blue bows" (or whatever example you want to use). Everything else you say might be true and correct Steve, but I will disagree with you about the shooters bitching. Not all of them complain. I don't. But some do no matter how the rule is worded. And I do have concerns just like you guys. What's next? Limited brace height? Minimum brace height? The kind of wood in your arrows? Anyway, sorry to tick you off man, it's just how I feel about it. At some point, again, at some point, you just have to buck up and shoot the bow. I feel that men such as yourself has the ability to shoot any kind of bow and any kind of arrow in the bulls eye at any given distance with enough practice. And that's how I look at it. If I practice, I should be ready no matter what kind of grip the next guy has. And if someone complain's about me, to the judges, and sets them off on a tyrant on making a new rule change, confusing even more people,then I feel they just did not prepare themselves enough to compete in that tournament. Just my thought's. n
<small>[ March 29, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: rob ]</small>

Don, I can surely understand yer logic about just getting to the main goal: shooting archery events. And it appears that the current IFAA longbow rules don't seem to bother you, you'll make do as long as long you can shoot the events.
But let's look at the big picture. With ambiguous rules that aren't completely enforced, or partially enforced, there's always the possibility of an archer being called for a rules violation during the shoot, let alone at the gear inspection table before the shoot begins. IMO, this is not the mark of a professional organization - it's amateurism at its worst. And shows that the IFAA longbow rules were not clearly thought out, even though there are decades of guidlines from at least orgs like the NFAA and NAA that've dealt with barebow events.

We all have our opinions - and good rules should cut through the opinion BS and make a fair and level playing field for all. Good rules are clearly defined and don't lend themselves to interpretations.
I don't see this as bitching - it's calling out inequalities for what they are, and that's one step in repealing/rewriting unfair rules and making archery better for everyone.

No, I don't nor won't be shooting IFAA events, for reasons that have nothing to do with the IFAA longbow rules. But I do care about how IFAA target archery appears, how it carries its image to the world.

Once again Rob, I do not entirely disagree with everything you guys are saying and never once did I say I was ever ok with IFAA rules as they are. I AM SIMPLY MAKING A STATEMENT ON WHAT ALOT OF COMPETITORS DO--COMPLAIN. The inspection table was set up for a reason, to make sure everybody is being fair and to stop the unfairness before the arrows are shot. THIS WAS CREATED BECAUSE SOMEONE COMPLAINED, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME. And there always is the possibility of an archer being called on a rules violation, and the highest percentage of the time it is being called bt ANOTHER ARCHER running to a field judge. Then it must be investigated and if found logical or unfair, a new rule is voted on, adopted, and here we go again. It never stops and that is why there is so much confusion. Everybody has there own interpretation of what the rule actually says or means. No body seems to ever be satisfied. Should a basketball player be restricted to what kind of shoes he can wear? No? Why not? Maybe the shoe he wore today helped him to be quicker on his pivots and leads which caused him to be able to shoot better. There are thousands of examples to use. I believe all the organizations hgave just let the rules get out of hand. Especially the NFAA. So many different classes it's absolutely out of control. Me and you shot the same score---but I am the world champion because you used a different grip? Sorry, I just simply do not agree with the logic. But there are Archers who will say that. And you know what? Thats ok for them I suppose. But if you truly want it right--everyone needs to shoot the very same bow, arrow, feather, weight, etc. Anyway, just my thoughts. What do you think?

I am sorry folks call me what ever you like, but cheating is cheating now matter how you look at it. Just because someone gets away with something doesn't make it right by any means. You can only bend the rules so far and walk a fine line so long until greed makes you fall over the edge.
These rule changes are for the good and folks here are reading into them too much. It would appear that those that are the most disgruntled are those that are most affected. Those that needed these crutches/aides to post the scores they were/are. The three rules which were amended were changed to defeat the conscience efforts of folks trying to beat the rules.
You agree to adhere to the IFAA rules when you pay your entrance/registration fee. From that point you have agreed to show good sportmanship and adhere to the guideslines/rules provided. Everyone is supposed to be on an even level regarding their equipment, execution, and abide by the rules.
Personnally I find it insulting that someone would find it fine to watch someone cheat and let them get away with it. I would and will put my money on the table in a heartbeat to protest another archer if they have crossed the line. Why should I let it ride, that individual agreed to abide by the rules and show good sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but by no means is cheating a way of showing good sportsmanship. I have morals and hold them in high regard. Any self respecting individual hopefully does the same.
You can bitch about folks like me all you want, but cheating is not right. If written rules were not in existance then you would not hear a peep from me, but they are. They are stated up front and agreed upon by the archer upon entrance of the shoot.
The rules are there for a reason and are stated clearly. Folks need to stop reading beyond what is stated and use logical reasoning.
Rules are rules and basically if you don't like it then you have the option to stay home! If folks would stop trying to beat the system then there would not be a need for this nonsense and more rules.

Initially when I read about the new rules, my first reaction was "how petty and nitpicking can they get." Then on further relection I realized that the changes were probably precipitated by someone trying to create an 'edge' for themself to the detriment of other shooters. Unfortunately there will always be those who try to try to create an unfair advantage, and it's to those people we ought to be directing our anger. The rules are merely created in an attempt to even the playing field. JMHO

I am hoping to shed some light on this set of "new rules" which I am still yet to hear about from our USA IFAA representative or see it in hard copy. But Martin has posted it here and my friend Piet from South Africa has sent me word. I would like to see it on official IFAA stationary, but I trust Martin and Piet at their word they must have a better raport with their reps.

I like the points made by Redbow, Steve M., and Flgator, and Rob's concerns as an observant archer certainly have merit.

Furthermore, Don B's posts capture a part of the credo of the competitive archer in the USA, show up to the tourney and shoot your best, let your bow and arrows do the talking. That's been how I've been brought up here in California.

I lost the World's in 2002 and I was elated with the silver, yes it hurt to not win Gold, but it was the best dang silver medal I had ever won! I'd heard and seen some interesting stuff going on during the competition but it had no bearing on where I stood at the end of the week. I shot my heart out that last day in Scotland and I was fine with that. Martin shot better than I did, and that is why he won the Gold Medal! Martin K is the current World Champion and has my utmost respect.

All the above doesn't need to be said, since it is obvious to me, the only reason I am stating it is because I want you all to know that I sent an email to Ken Rogers, president of IFAA and inquired about the legality of #1 Adding lead to a longbow. #2 Using rings on arrow shafts for sighting. #3 Moving your bow hand up and down the riser for different distances. I read the rules a multitude of times and could not see anything in them to rule that any of the aformentioned was illegal, but I wanted to make sure for the future. I wasn't sure if I should order a new bow with some Pb added.

Let me reiterate for any that it isn't clear to, that the 3 points listed above had no influence on my placing 2nd at WFAC 2002, nor has it had any bearing on any of my placings at the previous 3 World Championships. You will find no whine and cheese here.

When I first heard about these bow and arrow mod's I thought, wow, those are some innovative ideas. But then I got to thinking, I know what modern IFAA longbow looks like, I've been shooting it for the past 8 years. But if we escalate to leaded risers, rings on arrows for sighting etc., is that the direction we want to go? My own opinion is no, I don't want IFAA longbow to go in that direction. But I am but one member of IFAA and I don't make the rules for IFAA longbow. Therefore I contacted the IFAA president and asked if these 3 issues where currently allowed in IFAA longbow, what is IFAA's take, what would IFAA rule?n
As noble as Don and my convictions are in trying to grasp the essence of archery competition is, I cannot forget some of the history that took place at archery venues decades ago with similar conviction.

Think back to when archery was all stickbows and barebows at that. Then think back to when sights came on to the scene. The best archers back then felt no threat towards the sight shooters. The guys shooting barebow were beating sight shooters, it was a non issue that the barebow archers figured would probably go away. The top shots could care less what guys were screwing on their bows. Same thing occured when compounds came on the scene. But sights dominated with top scores eventually. Freestyle changed the course of archery in every World archery venue.

As a competitor I claim with conviction that whether lead is in bows or not will have no bearing on who podiums at Watkins Glen this year. But I am concerned about the direction of longbow. Should we allow adding lead and other metals to stablize longbows. Should we allow multiple rings on the arrow shaft near the point for 50, 60, 70, and 80 yard marks? Should we allow stringwalking, facewalking, bow walking (never heard of it) in IFAA longbow. I don't know the answer as far as what will eventually evolve. In my opinion, I say no, heck that stuff isn't allowed in other non sight divisions why would we want it in longbow.

I am off to shoot a 300 round with a lead free bow. Talk to you all later, I apologize if I have offended or caused any harm to you all, brothers of the bow.

Regards,n
Larry

Art, you said "Arc.....So, this means that if I bring a bow and it has any kind of wood grain visable on the bellie of the bow I have to put tape on it....holy toledo summer tomato's someone would actually call you on the wood grain on the bow?????
Amazing....they must stalk each other...I'd hate to be the guy in the lead and have the label on my underpants show....someone would protest you for distracting other archer's....hey that ain't a bad idea. I knew a guy that used to load up on beans the night before a big indoor shoot. hmmmm? Makes me go green.

I'm gonna look forward to being at this shindig!!n "n
"Believe it or not, I got protested at the nationals for taking to long to shoot and throwing the leader's timing off"n
It had no merit and the protest was thrown out and I beat the guy. But he was not happy about it. What happened was on the 2nd day after I heard about the protest I went out the 3rd, 4th and 5th day and shot really fast and that did not set well with him either because whenever I finished shooting I would turn around and say "your up". He didn't like it no matter what took place. That's what I mean. If they want the medal really bad nothing will stop them from complaining.

Hey Don....the leader protested...funny. Some will obviously do things no matter how petty to gain an advantage....mind games included. Cheers to you, Don, for beating his cheap butt. I'd rather of found him in a parking lot and showed him how to put some reflex in a bow.

The more rules there are in any venue simply allows for more room for protest. What the heck difference does it make if a fella is using his knuckles, the bow shelf, or a wrap on his handle for sighting you're still shooting a longbow and trying to give it sights. Although I have to admit I had never heard of walking the bow handle...
Some, instead of protesting on the field eye ball to eye ball will try to work things behind the scenes, so they can maintain an innocent standing. This is the worst of the worst. Especially those having access to the political and governing members. Meanwhile, the average Joe walks around wondering how things got so screwed up and feels like he was sucker punched..... Others, as in Don's case above, will play mental games hoping to gain the advantage, thankfully this doesn't usually work with a champion.
I can understand why it's being reported that some archers are deciding to stay home. This unfortunately gives the advantage to those who manipulate the system for their own advantage. They will be there with less competition.

Unfortunate for sure. I can see the IFAA doing away with the longbow class unless it can get it together.
Art

Hey Don maybe your on to something....
Great Idea Don!!!!!
n
We all need to start sending emails.
Art