Stickbow Target Archery Forums

I'm with you, Todd - gone are my Edge and ACS dayze, I only shoot with mild r/d longbows that are "D" braced. I prefer that aesthetics and that "feel". I do have a radical r/d longbow, a Thunderstick MOAB, but that's for hunting only.
IMO, there are two key factors involved, in unprioritized order -
1. human nature - which is why there is a 21st Edge and an ACS and a Vision and other longbow designs that will push the original meaning of "longbow"; policing what can and can't be considered an IFAA legal longbow is why the IFAA continues to fail miserablyn
2. promoting traditional barebow archery - IMO, this is SO important - allowing ALL longbow archers to feel they can participate in the IFAA target game with their longbow; you can't do this with the current IFAA longbow gear rules; this is what's needed to increase longbow archery interest and participation

Todd, I could not agree more, especially the part about pushing the envelope trying to turn the longbow into a recurve. Perhaps that is what the IFAA is trying to do, avoid that. The greatest shame is that some solid decisions need to be made so a person will know what is and is not legal over a period of years insted of tournament to tournament. Come on IFAA lets make some decisions even if we do not all agree with them and provide a bit of stability that can help the sport grow.

I see Rob a thing about Stealth R/D Longbows saying the Edge,ACS and Vision are pushing the original meaning of Longbow, just WHAT is a TRUE Longbow, nobody really knows, even the IFAA don't seem to know, if anything was close it was the English Longbow, and they banned that with the limb tip rule.

If you read Jim Hamms book on Native American Longbows you will see there seems to be as many different Bows as Tribes, although the R/D Longbow has crept into the IFAA it has had a controlling limit in the rules by keeping it 'D' shaped when strung, if Longbows that show Recurve when strung are allowed you are in effect turning the Longbow division into 'Long limbed Recurves' and Martin is right in wanting to keep Longbow as close to the traditional'D' shape as possible.

I would have liked the IFAA Longbow division to have tighted rules to start with keeping it more like the Hill style bows, BUT its the IFAA failure to foresee this and we shouldn't be made to pay the price by having to change our Bows, times have changed and nearly everybody shooting in the IFAA Longbow division shoot some kind of R/D Longbow, in reality archers don't just shoot IFAA and if IFAA Longbow rules become so far detatched from other archery bodies it will only kill off the Longbow class within the IFAA.
The IFAA Longbow rules need to be several things.

1. Simple rules that are easy to understand across many languages.

2. Allow as many archers as possibe to enjoy and compete on an even and fair playing field.

3. listen to the Archers and be logical and consistent in their rule desisions.

A high ranking IFAA offical recently said to me 'It should be the IFAA dictating to the Bowyers on Longbow design and not the Bowyers', Sorry IFAA that just isn't going to happen and you need to get your head out of the sand.

Yer pretty much on the money in my book, Steve!n
What IS a "longbow"? At this point in time, the most worldwide prolific and easily obtained "longbow" is an r/d design that makes no attempt to hide it wants to be a recurve ... yet it surely isn't, even though some come alarmingly close.

If you want to progress the sport of longbow target archery, capture the interest and hopeful participation of the masses, allow the non-stealth hybrid r/d "longbow" to be IFAA legal.n
All the convoluted and complicated IFAA attempts to define what is a "longbow" have failed miserably.
End the madness - adopt the "if the string loops only touch the limb nocks, it's a longbow" rule - and let's all get on with the fun of the competition and the progression of the sport.n
This may eventually lead to an IFAA Longbow Class system that separtates r/d and ELB/Hill-style bows ... so be it - there is NO reason why any of these "longbows" still can't compete at the main IFAA longbow game, though there will be large performance difference afforded by those different bow designs.

Let's see, is this the 4th or 5th year the IFAA has let down its competing longbow members? Not a good track record IFAA - you continue to fail your members and - more importantly - the entire worlwide sport of longbow target archery.

The NFAA rep was probably right but this was - as you quit rightly state - years ago. Now there is a South African President, a Australian Treasurer, a English Vice president and a German Secretary. The funny thing is, that most European archers believe that everything in the IFAA is driven by the NFAA as the largest Organisation within the IFAA members. So - looking from a distance - it seems that there is a uncertainty on both ends.
Now I like your statement that we first have to agree amongst ourselves before we can even hope for a open ear to listen to us. As the clock is ticking, I repeat why I have started this whole discussion: There is a good chance now that the voices of archers will be listened to. What we need is a campaign that comprises not only the limited numbers of STAF members but also other archers with the balls to move things (sorry for that bad choice of words).
We need to wake up the Aussies as well as the Canadians. (By the way there is now a new representing association for Canada in the IFAA:http://www.fca.ca )n Yes, lets use the STAF as home base and spread the news
I would suggest we find a common ground first and than formulate a standard e-mail that should be sent by the individual archers to their reps. By this they get a understanding that there is more than just one or two individuals supporting the suggestion but a hopefully great number. And copy the secretary of the IFAA - to collect the emails.
Where to find the e-mail adresses? Go to members and click onto the country your are member of
The e-mail adress of the secretary is martin.koini@t-online.de

"Bellyaching"? IMO, not at all, Larry.
It's called "constructive criticism", and if it seems like b!tching to you, so be it. If it appears that I and others are throwing barbs at the IFAA, yep, guilty as charged. With the IFAA's horrible track record, they deserve it.
IMO, there's nothing wrong with the "string loops in the limb nocks" longbow definition because it serves both the competing archers and archers worldwide, who would now be able to play the IFAA game with the tools they already have.
And aren't r/d longbows already used in IFAA tourneys? After all Larry, you've competed with a stealth r/d longbow, and you've been on the winner's podium using that bow quite often. Are you saying that it's OK for a braced longbow to look like a "classic" D-braced longbow even though there's no comparison when unbraced or when it comes to functional performance? If so, that sure sounds like a double standard to me.

Pistol grip? Please, that makes no sense - yer further alienating archers and making rules that are near impossible to enforce. And for what? Tell me, show me, the performance advantage that a Vision longbow would have over an Edge with a "Buddy" grip ... or an ELB, for that matter. Or is this just an aesthetic issue, like ELB's versus hybrid r/d longbows?
Bow quivers - IFAA illegal.

Adding material to the bow that has nothing to do with the bow's legal function or design - IFAA illegal.

Time to tweak the rules? Haven't we all been down this go-nowhere road too many times before? No, not at all about rules tweaking, please. The current IFAA rules need to be radically changed in order to ...
1. make it terribly easy to determine and enforce what is a legal IFAA longbow - this may mean 2 IFAA Longbow classes: Modern and Classicn
2. encourage more worldwide participation in IFAA Longbow tournaments - that's the main thrust of the IFAA creed, promote the sportn
Anything less than the above is no progress ... and the same old bs when it comes to IFAA tourney bow inspections ... and y'all know what that leads to ...

<img>

I really think robs stance is the most logical and practical of anything ive seen or heard.

I dont understand what the current IFFA rules are meant to enforce other than opinions.

Are they really meant to enforce performance issues?
Obviously they are not.

Bigger bulkier limb tips do not improve bow performance, they hinder it. The fastest, most stable bows are already shooting and winning the worlds tournaments, are they not?n
Guess what: there are mild r/d designs and even simple reflex longbows that will shoot faster and with less shock/more stability that SOME radical R/D longbows.

degree of center shot is a moot point. it doesnt win tournaments.

i think its rediculous to go to a shoot that allows aluminum arrows but not carbon (as aluminum is a superior arrow for strict target shooting than most all carbon arrows)
i dont like shoots that enforce arrow point weights or bow poundages.

ive been to shoots that do all of these things and it ALWAYS brings down the level of participation.

these are not all gripes about the IFFA rules , they are gripes about ILLOGICAL and IMPRACTICAL rules in general.

rules which stifle participation as a whole.

I will probably never shoot in an IFAA competition, nor will most longbow archers in the WORLD.

If i ever thought about it and read the current rules i would definitely count myself out and tell my friends "dont compete in that org. because the rules dont make sense".

If the rules were changed to be simpler and more inclusive then participation would soar
ie,n
string doesnt touch limb tip ,
no stabilizers=bow quivers(man thats a no brainer) ,n
then just decide on arrow materials: either everyone shoots wood or you can shoot anything you want.

If this happens then the IFFA , in one simple sweep of the pen, could potentially increase its members/participants by an astronomical number.

I would be willing to bet that if these rules were adopted 90% of people would be just fine with them, instead of the 90% of people that seem currently unhappy with them.

I also doubt that joe schmoe shooting his recurve style jumbo riser with radical r/d carbon limbs would some how miraculously rise from the darkness to unseat the top 5 longbow shooters today.

Which to me, brings up another point:n
what are the current champions shooting?n
what is their shooting style?n
how are there attitudes in general?
n
the answer to this, of course, is :n
ultra fast/efficient reflex deflex longbows.

mediteranian loose.

and awesome attitudes and character when it comes to competition and attitudes/insight on stick and string archery on a world level.

perhaps the current IFFA ruling body could glean some insight on the current state of their(?) longbow archery class by communicating with the top archers in those respective classes.

Larry ,Steve,Martin,Redbow,Rob, others:n
what do you think you would shoot if regular r/d bows were allowed(by regular i mean bows that had visible , non string contact, reflex when braced)?n
from the testing ive done and seen the edge bows are the fastes thing out there anyway. Would you be adverse to allowing r/d bows with recurve risers and palm swells to compete? would you use them yourselves? or would you continue to use something that resembles a longbow and continue to win and continue to promote and encourage this style of archery?n
hopefully all of these posts make it all the way to the top..

i would join the IFFA today if their longbow rules were made for me.

until rob is king :stooges:
ryan b.

Rob, I don't want to turn this thread into whether you are right or wrong, King, or a top shooter in longbow(?). But I do think you summed it up when you stated "And who doesn't know that I've been yapping and b!tching about the IFAA nonsense since I created STAF many years ago? ." I do feel your comments are off the mark, Martin and the rest of the new IFAA Officers that are visiting this message board are looking for constructive suggestions. Put yourself in their position, try to imagine you volunteered your time to serve office in IFAA and now you are considering the IFAA longbow rules and read through your posts on this thread.? It may be regional and cultural, but if I was an officer I would be put off by your comments and barbs.

Take a look at any sport that has a limited class of competition where the equipment is meant to be more "simple". From Auto Racing to Pistol shooting, in the limited class the rules are more complex and defined. It is the nature of the beast. Conversely, in freestyle classifications the rules are more simple since just about anything goes.

So, let's get on with it and put forth some constructive suggestions for IFAA to develop a set of rules that will work for longbow. Modify or accept the proposed rule changes or try to recreate the "wheel" and come up with a whole new proposal. IFAA is listening, let's make good use of this opportunity.
Larry

You're way off base, Larry.
Lemme make this quite clear so we don't hafta visit it again: this isn't at all about me, or you in any way, personal or otherwise. This IS about what's right and what's wrong for International Longbow archery, which is currently defacto-governed by the IFAA.
No one but the IFAA can be held accountable for how the IFAA structured their rules, but I can damn sure yelp about it and hopefully get their attention for constructive, logical change. If that bothers you, too bad - sorry. I spent lotsa time initially, on the phone and in emails, trying to be proactively constructive, but it didn't take long for me to see how well I was being stonewalled by both the NFAA and IFAA.

I've penned my constructive Longbow rules suggestions for years, and the only IFAA legislated results I've seen are even dumber rules (limb tips and grip wraps, for instance).
The current IFAA longbow definition is unfair and illogical, and only promotes controversy ... you guys that compete know exactly what that has meant for you ... and the use of stealth r/d longbows. <img>n
If anyone thinks the current rules are good, please tell me how you come to that conclusion. Show me how you think it's fair that the rules require a "D" braced "classic" longbow and yet archers are competing, and winning, with stealth r/d braced longbows.

I'm tired of listening to folks pussy footing around the longbow definiton issue. Crap or get off the pot. Either restrict the rules to ELB/Hill-style bows (checked and measure UNBRACED) or just move the hell on and legalize r/d bows and allow the world to complete. If this upsets anyone, lobby for 2 IFAA Longbow classes: Modern and Classic. But stop the insanity of allowing archers to circumvent intent of the rules by using stealth r/d longbows - and the ambiguous gear checks at tourneys.

My IFAA Longbow definition: if the string loops touch only the limb nocks it's a longbow, no restriction on grip style or grip wraps, no restriction to limb tips, no marks on the limb-belly/riser-belly/string, string silencers that are out of view at full draw are legal, no stabilizers, no bow quivers, no intentional added materials to the bow that changes the bow's dynamic function, no clickers, shelf arrow rests or off-the-knuckles arrow rests only, finger and wrist slings are legal. OPTIONAL: 1/8"+ centershot (though this ONLY hasta do with dynamic arrow spine), Mediteranean release only.

My IFAA Arrow definition: feather fletched arrows, any shaft material, any conical point weight.

Larry, I'd love to hear your IFAA Longbow definition suggestions.
MARTIN, you listening? Comments, please?

Larry is a great ambassador for our sport and a fine statesman for archery, and if and when the IFAA sit up and start to listen it will be to the likes of Larry and Martin.

As for the ifaa we can only go on what has gone before. So I do not hold out much hope for a reasoned diplomatic approach to the Ifaan 1 D shape Limbn 2 Limb tip rule
3 riser wrapsn 4 Three finger undern 5 Marked rings on the front of the arrown 5 The possibility of a pistol grip rule!n
I agree with Larry that within a restricted class, that the rules are very tight within their given definitions. Problem is that the Ifaa keep changing their definitions!n
We also have a governing body that comes up with rules that are just "Stupid"n and without reason to the vast majority of the people that shoot Ifaa, then the time for diplomacy has to stop and some shouting has to take place.

For example the stupid Limb tip rule, and the stupid 3 finger under rule.

Just wait and see how and when the, "pistol grip" rule come into effect!n
Rob the NFAA has NO CLUE ABOUT IFAA LONGBOW, at the last worlds in Watkins glen they put IFAA Longbow archers on different courses that would only be shot once during the 4 days of the tournament, and they thought that was OK!n when it was pointed out to them, the official said "I do not see the problem"n I said "how can you have a world championship's with archers on different courses, over 4 days, and at no time shoot each others course."n The official still could not see the problem!!!!n It took him a good 10 minuets to figure it all out, considering they had at least a year to get all this together, one would have thought they would have got it right!n And after all that they still managed to put an archer in the wrong Longbow group!n
And if the IFAA are reading this. Please take note, make the Longbow division a shooters division where all longbow archers can play, not a division restricted to the few.